Finding a Home near a STL Trail!

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Section of Trail near Creve Coeur Lake Park

In finding a place to live, there are many different things to consider. Schools, styles, lot sizes, and proximity to work being some of the biggies.

One thing that is being considered more and more is finding a home nearby recreational trails for bicycling, inline skating and walking.

Living and working nearby local trails and bicycle lanes promotes fitness, safety, environementally clean transportation and entertainment, as well as stimulates the economy of the area by attracting visitors and business to local restaurants, hotels and shops. Lastly, proximity to trails adds to the value of homes in the communities adjacent to the trails.

While trails have been in various stages of development for years, 2020 Trail construction and trail usage seem to have ‘turned the corner’ coincidentally, and due to the Coronavirus pandemic. Bicycle shops and inline skates have had a huge increase in use, and those who previously turned to other modes of fitness have spent time outside on local trails.

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Development of Trail Network Benefits Everyone!

Aside from helping St. Louis home buyer’s to find homes near trails, its important to help people throughout the area where trails are located and to keep people informed about opportunities to participate into the development of local trails and greenways. Without knowledge of these projects, area businesses and residents won’t understand the impact they can have on trails, and trails have on them.

St. Louis Trails and Homes Nearby

Click the link above to home searches near all the greenways below.

Grant’s Trail (Gravois Greenway)

Creve Coeur Lake / Page Extension Trails

Sunset Greenway Trail

River Des Peres Greenway Trail

Centennial Greenway Trail

Mississippi Greenway

North Riverfront Trail / Jefferson Barracks

Meramec Greenway

Flat Creek Trail / Route 66 Trail / Unger-Fenton-Winter Park

Deer Creek Greenway Trail

Monarch Levee Greenway Trail (Missouri River Greenway)

Katy Trail Greenway (Missouri River Greenway)

….. more coming soon!

Edging Out the Other Buyers

Home Buying is a lot like competition for the Bachelorette

The home buying market is ever changing.

Last year, things got crazy. It was the 4th year of housing shortages, and buyer’s had to become resourceful. Imagine it being like the 29 guys on The Bachelorette. 29-1 odds: like Ladies Night in Fairbanks!

Not every buyer wants to, or can afford to out-spend everyone. So what do you do? The answer is complicated. Opinions vary, but here are my suggestions.

Step #1: Interview a Realtor®

People like to talk about homes being the largest investment in your life. If you owned a pro sports team, and you needed someone to manage it for you, would you hire the first person that picked up the phone? Would you hire someone because your older sister knows them? Would you hire someone because they agree to pay half their earnings to a celebrity? Most pro sports team owners would say emphatically, “no!” Interviewing a Realtor® is important, and knowing what to ask is important too. I’d ask “how long have you been assisting buyer’s? How many buyer’s per year do you normally represent? Do you also list homes? How many homes have you owned yourself? Can you tell me how you’d help me buy a home?

Atrium Ranch we helped a client purchase in September 2020.

Often times buyer’s are relegated to buyer’s agents that are just entering the business, while the more experienced Realtor® focus only on listings. The problem with that is the well of information is relatively dry for many exclusive buyer’s agents. For some its just a stair step until they learn the ropes. I’ve often times been shocked to talk with some of the younger agents in the business that haven’t ever purchased a home of their own to draw experience from. It reminds me of a waiter in a restaurant that has no idea about anything on the menu, versus a waiter with clear knowledge of their menu and all the possible options. Inexperienced buyer’s agents are like the proverbial order taker that just wants to the deal to come together and has no idea of what should be happening.

Photographs of a home on Shenandoah Avenue in the Tower Grove East neighborhood of St. Louis, Missouri for Lisa & Chris Grus, Premier Realty Exclusive,

Step #2: Depends on Step #1

When a buyer engages us, we explain our role in the process and ask them some questions. It’s important for us to know things like a home buyer’s time frame, desired features, preferred area, and even how long they plan on staying there. So many factors come out of our initial discussion, and once we understand, we confirm with the prospective buyer what strategy seems best for their specific situation. As long as the buyer(s) agree, we outline the strategy and make recommendations from there, so it all starts with hiring the right Realtor®!

For help finding the right buyer’s agent, visit us online and set up an interview!

St Louis real estate is our specialty! 
If you’re looking for real estate anywhere in the St Louis, MO area, including St Louis CitySt Louis CountySt CharlesBallwinChesterfieldSunset HillsKirkwoodWebster Groves, or one of the other areas we serve, simply click the “How-To Find my buyer’s agent” link at the top or bottom of this page to begin your home search now.

Home Shopping 101

In 2020, buyers have to be savvy to get the best deals on homes!

We’ve all heard about 2020 being a tough year. Well don’t get prospective home shoppers started! It’s been an unexpected challenge, right up their with toilet paper, cleaning products and exercise equipment!

Low interest rates, plus the change in plans for a lot of people due to COVID-19, meant that home Last week a buyer that seemed to get beat out every time they made an offer was finally able to move into their first home! Just like most years, things go in cycles and this year the election was the impetus of a more buyer friendly market. Traditionally the market slows down in late summer, when people start taking more trips, going to concerts and avoiding the heat. This year it didn’t happen. One thing that happens alost every year, is the ability to pick up homes more affordably during the holidays through late January.

One slight change from the pandemic is that the whole world seemed to learn how to use Zoom, as well as the evolution of several other virtual meeting programs. The time it used to take to meet with buyer’s has dropped, as many people are happy to meet their Realtor virtually and get acquainted without stepping foot outside their homes.

Click Here to Request a Zoom Buyer Consultation

So if you’re still considering home buying, waiting until springtime like everyone else may end up costing you!

St Louis real estate is our specialty! If you’re looking for real estate anywhere in the St Louis, MO area, including St Louis CitySt Louis CountySt CharlesBallwinChesterfieldSunset HillsKirkwoodWebster Groves, or one of the other areas we serve, simply click the “Search St Louis Real Estate” link at the top or bottom of this page to begin your home search now.

Medical Resident Buying STL

residency relocation to St. Louis

The National Residency Matching Program has its general match calendar each year, starting in November and ending on the highly celebrated and ceremonial Match Day. It is this process by which all recent graduates of medical school take the next step towards being a physician through their apprenticeship known as RESIDENCY.

Next Week is the opening of rank order list, and all the medical residents we’ve spoken to regarding a possible relocation to St. Louis to work at our various residency programs (Washington University (BJC Hospital), St. Louis University, St. Mary’s Hospital, St. Lukes Hospital and Mercy Hospital) will be ranking their choices of residency programs and many of their decisions will be weighted between the strengths / reputation of the residency program, and where they desire to live. This bodes very well for an affordable world class city like St. Louis, that also happens to have sought after residency programs.

Residency Relocation Pages

Our Resident’s Relocation pages help aid the residents looking to buy homes in St. Louis for their 3 to 7 year (or more) stay in the river city. We started assisting this special category of home buyer’s several years ago, and continue to get referrals from medical schools and current resident clients.

Residents have special relocation needs, unlike many normal buyers, and even many relocation buyers. Can you imagine having to finish your final weeks of medical school, evaluate and make MAJOR CAREER CHOICES, and oh… by the way…. plan a major move for you and your family? This process requires a Realtor with a great deal of understanding for the incredible demands placed upon their clients. Aside from being residency relocation experts, we also keep updated lists of the top physician loan programs currently available to St. Louis medical residents!

Contact Us Today

If you’re currently considering a move to St. Louis, set up a residency relocation consultation with Chris and Lisa Grus. Match Day is coming quickly, and an understanding of St. Louis real estate will be helpful in finding why St. Louis is a fantastic place to land for these important years. Two MAJOR factors that medical residents LOVE about St. Louis is our affordability, and how mild traffic is here! This gives residents the flexibility to live in more locations with better amenities, than being trapped so close to the hospital with fewer choices.

Something to Think About….

The ‘tiny home’ phenomenon has been interesting these past few years. Like a lot of gimmicks, I’ve been curious how long this will last. There are a lot of die hard believers that espouse the many virtues. Not that I’m a serious doubter, but there’s just a part of me that’s asking “are they seriously going to live there?”

The upside of living off the grid is the efficiency of it. Having a tiny home built with maximum efficiency, solar panels, and limited output needs is great. Having no mortgage and nothing “holding you down” can be nice too.

The down side, I’ve always thought, would be going stir crazy on cold winter days like today or during a storm. Not being able to entertain, or have really more than a couple people around inside. When I’m not getting along with the folks I live with [that never happens really, but hypothetically 😁], I like my space. Having to listen in on everything that person does with virtually no privacy would drive me nuts. Not being able to get a mortgage, while touted as a big plus, seems to be a negative to me. Having to fork out $20,000 to $60,000 to a builder before you see a product or even know whether you can handle tiny home living seems more risky than signing a mortgage for a home.

As a Realtor, I’ve found that some people are much less space conscious. One past client lived in a 700 square foot condo. During the sale, almost all prospective buyers commented on the unit being so small. That couple ended up buying a home that was only 108 square feet larger, and then having 4 kids!! The latest trends from my perspective have been people needing more space, not less.

Despite my best thinking, I never considered the whole house being stolen! I imagine there are other factors about tiny house living that aren’t very beneficial. I’ll just keep my eye on the headlines and see.

Tips for Injured or Disabled Home Buyers

Finding and buying a new home can be a stressful process.  Doing so while  recovering from an injury only adds to the pressure. You might not realize it at first, but your injury attorney in St. Louis can help you with more than pursuing monetary compensation for your damages. He or she can refer you to a realtor specifically trained to find accessible homes that meet your needs.

Tell your Realtor All of your Needs to Filter Houses

During your initial meeting with your realtor, tell him or her all of your physical limitations and any additional limitations you expect to have in the future. Your realtor’s first goal is to help find houses that fit your needs, so the more information he or she has about your needs, the more effectively he or she can be. Otherwise, you’ll be wasting your time looking at houses that you ultimately don’t pursue because they aren’t accessible and can’t be modified.  Giving your Realtor the needs up front will also help them assess where certain adaptions may be needed and then describe them to a contractor willing and able to install them. 

Accessibility Adaptations you Might Need

If you’re not sure which specific adaptations your new home will need, talk to your doctor about your condition. Your doctor can recommend specific home modifications, such as:

  • A wheelchair ramp;
  • A stairlift;
  • A wheelchair platform lift;
  • An accessible shower/bathtub combination;
  • Lowered countertops;
  • Widened doorways;
  • Grab rails; 
  • Outdoor railings; and 
  • ADA-compliant toilets. 

Discuss a Realistic Budget and Modification Plan with your Realtor

Virtually no home is 100% move in ready.  There are always things that you’ll need to be happy, and if your Realtor is experienced, they’ll have access to good contractors that can help get things done.  Some people just don’t have a way to make updates before moving in – if modifying the home isn’t a realistic option for you, your real estate agent can help you find homes that don’t need modifications. Don’t assume that you can’t afford the modifications you need. You might be able to get funding to help cover these costs or they might be covered by your insurance.

It’s also important to make plans based on how long you anticipate needing accessibility modifications. If you are temporarily in a wheelchair as you recover from an injury, it might make sense for you to simply set up your bedroom on your new home’s ground floor and then move it upstairs once you can walk on the stairs. If you are permanently disabled, you will need to invest in an accessible home.

Finding the Right Home for You

You shouldn’t expect to settle for a house that doesn’t work for your needs simply because you have very specific needs. Be willing to be patient and compromise when necessary – what if instead of a stairlift, you chose a one-story home to make it possible for you to access every area of the home? Brainstorm accessibility ideas with your realtor and other members of your household to see if there are solutions other than modifying a new home to make it accessible.  

St Louis real estate is our specialty! 
If you’re looking for real estate anywhere in the St Louis, MO area, including St Louis CitySt Louis CountySt CharlesBallwinChesterfieldSunset HillsKirkwoodWebster Groves, or one of the other areas we serve, simply click the “Search St Louis Real Estate” link at the top or bottom of this page to begin your home search now.

What is a Buyer Credit at Close??

Should a buyer ask the seller for assistance on their closing expenses?

Image result for money pictureWhat the heck is a credit at closing for a buyer? When I ask a buyer when we are doing our buyer consultation if they would like a credit at closing when structuring an offer, they often look at me like I have 2 heads:) I thought it would be fitting to share so maybe if one of those buyers reads this they will feel like an empowered informed buyer and will look at me with confidence and say ‘Absolutely!’

Image result for money picture A credit at closing is when a buyer makes an offer and asks the seller to give them a credit at closing to go towards there closing costs and pre-paid expenses (homeowners insurance, building inspection, etc.). The credit reflects in the final executed contract if all parties to the contract agree.

The seller can’t just give a buyer money at close for anything. That would be nice, but is against lending rules. They can give a credit to help with the buyers closing cost expenses only. So if a buyer makes an offer for $300,000 & a $5000 credit at close that buyer is actually offering the seller a net of $295,000. This is important to understand because if making an offer in a competitive market, the price needs to be aggressive to take into consideration the buyer credit request since the seller’s net on sale price is less due to the credit. I would guesstimate more than 1/2 the offers we write have a buyer’s credit at closing included. Its a super common practice nowadays, especially in the St. Louis market where you have mid range pricing and buyers that need assistance.

Really that credit a buyer receives they pay back in the form of additional mortgage, but for many a credit is super helpful with allowing a buyer to be more liquid friendly at closing so they can have a greater down payment or fix-up money to make there new home a gem! The Buyer’s Agent will be the guide through this and help  determine the best coarse. Our experience shows it is best to figure out in initial stages.

Image result for shark jawsBuying a home is pricey and the expenses at closing are great. You have lender fees, title fees, inspections, escrows for taxes and insurance, and often additional realtor fee. Depending on the price of the property they can easily be $5000-$8000+! Ouch, that is a bite out of the old checkbook! So, if a seller is willing to help with the hefty costs costs by allowing a closing credit and the buyer has the need for it I would say that is a perfect real-estate marriage:)

I will give a little caution to any that care. If the closing costs do not meet the credit a buyer is getting sadly that negotiated money goes back to the seller. A buyers credit can only be used for closing costs and prepaids:( A buyer can’t walk away with money from the purchase they just made. Best practice we do is always confirm with the lender what credit amount should we ask for on behalf of the buyer. Then we are assured that no money is left on the table & we have a HAPPY New Homeowner:)


Happy St. Louis Home Buyer

St. Louis – Local Real Estate Wiki

real estate frustration

Where National Realty Websites Fail the Most

Becoming a Realtor has been different than expected.   For one, the hours.  I thought I’d work mostly nights and weekends.   I do, but I also work M-F 9-5 also.   The other main thing is that sometimes I don’t sell.   I un-sell.   Someone has the wrong lender;  unsell.   Someone likes a horrible house;  un-sell.   New construction salesperson fails gives limited or false data; unsell.  You get the point…  It may come off as controlling, but its really helping people see the possible impacts of their prospectively bad decisions.

But the main thing that can be frustrating, is what normally would be commendable:   having a client that likes to research.   Self study.   The problem isn’t with them, but the quality and relevance of the material.

There’s certainly plenty of information out there.   Blogs, websites, articles…. everyone wants to help, and everyone has an opinion.   No one has an editor or publisher anymore.   (That’s the folks that pay attention to fact checking and sources).  One thing that many clients don’t understand is how ‘hit or miss’ our industry can be regarding knowledge and training.   If I worked for IBM or Apple, and my boss had an employee meeting or training session, I’d better be there, right?   Not in Real Estate!   As free agent contractors, we have the power of choice.   For nearly all of my career, I’ve been a broker that sold, plus a trainer of other agents.   So many times I had to hit the text books to confirm I was teaching the right information, then teach it.   Sometimes I’d prepare for hours just to have half the agents in the office show up.  The point is, its always nice to consider the source, and in real estate, that’s hard to do.   Like a shepard watching over its flock, a Realtor should be concerned if his or her clients are basing decisions on reading material thats not accurate, right?

The most glaring problem isn’t about competence, its about RELEVANCE.   “ALL REAL ESTATE IS LOCAL!”   That means that the practice of real estate, and the act of buying and selling real estate is govened and directed by local laws, and customs.    California has the most Realtors in the United States, therefore a lot of the information is either produced by, or for California.   Real estate in St. Louis is different, not just in the types of trees and amount of sunshine either.   In California, they practice escrow closings, and we have been un-selling our clients on that topic for years.   In Missouri its just not done.  Our funds are held in escrow, but usually for much less time than on the coasts.    There’s even variance that occurs within the state though.   Some customs in rural areas or across the state are different than customs are here in St. Louis, which affects the procedures of buying and selling.   What I see as a true benefit is that the Bar Association of Metropolitan St. Louis and the St. Louis Association of Realtors came to an agreement years ago to use many of the same documents for real estate sales, which makes it easier and cheaper for everyone in the region.   With standardized contracts, there’s less legal work required at Title Companies, so costs are substantially lower than in other areas.  As a result, fewer buyers and seller’s elect to have an attorney involved in their transaction, a thought that would make someone in New York go into a panic attack!

So after years of hearing ourselves explaining these things over and over to our clients and customers, we established the St. Louis Real Estate Wiki on our site and hope, if you’re in St. Louis, that you find it useful.   If you’re not from St. Louis, find one in your area, and do a good job selecting a Realtor that knows their stuff!    We’re always looking to add topics to the Wiki too, so if you have a question or need more information about ANYTHING in Real Estate, Contact us and let us know.   We’re here to serve!

How does a buyer get the most accurate information on properties for sale?

In today’s real-estate world the landscape has changed so much! In the St. Louis market for many years there were not sites such as zillow or trulia. The buyer 100% relied on their Realtor for property information. Oh those were the days!

Image result for instant gratification

Often today real-estate is an instant gratification desired experience for most buyers. The challenges are often inaccurate information, sold homes, poor sales comps, and frustrated buyers-which really bums us out! We meet with our buyers and want their wish list in a property Our goal is for our fabulous buyers to have the Best real-estate experience possible. We desire ease, comfort, and a sense of being taken care of as we locate the Perfect Property! We pride our team as being the Hardest Working Realtors in St. Louis. Our work is a bit different today because there is so much information out there, some good and useful and much undermining and inaccurate. The buyer signs up for many sites outside of their realtor and there is no guarantee that site will be accurate.

Image result for anti zillowThe best most accurate place a buyer can locate properties is through their realtor and a service only realtors can use which is the Multiple Listing Services. We call the search set up a Buyer Portals! What is a buyer portal? It is a property search set up with the exact criteria of the buyers wants. It can be mapped, based on schools, zip codes, drive time, price range and even detailed as garage, pools, finished basement. It is specific taylor made for our buyers – their wishes and needs. It is the most accurate information because it is a direct link to the MLS which is the platform that all the realtors use marketing and locating properties. So when a property comes up on the MLS and a portal is set up the buyer received a link to that property right when the agent does. The buyer can adjust their search, add new searches, make notes for their agent, rank properties, and much more. It is a fabulous search tool and because it is direct from the MLS, the most accurate information there is trumping Zillow & Trulia! The agent MLS is also super helpful when analyzing the market to decide the perfect offer to make on a property! The data has everything from tax records, mortgages, past sales, reductions, and loads more!

Image result for happy house buyer Zillow and Trulia often feel like the short route, but in reality they often are a tool of misinformation and frustration for the buyer and the buyer agent assisting! We have found we can serve best when we are the trusted professional and are able to implement the needed tools to finding the Perfect Property! It actually empowers our buyers which we love!

Thoughts on Real Estate Investing

st louis investment propertyUnderstanding the investment property market

Real estate investment is a fantastic way to build wealth.   As an investor, and as a Realtor helping owners buy and sell properties, we’ve  had a front row seat on how the process works, and how successful investors succeed.

We aren’t wanting this to be about spitting out investment principles out like they so often are.  For one, there’s already 10,000 sites that state investment formulas with  certainty.   The problem is that ‘for sale’ properties usually don’t jump out as being outstanding performers upon analysis.    After all, why would they?   What investor is likely to take a property that his performing optimally, making lots of money, low expenses, no repairs needed and sell it so someone else can make all the profits on their work and costs?  

Real estate is fluid, so developing an understanding of what we call the ‘ownership cycle’ of property as well as the regular market cycle (buyer’s market and seller’s market) is important for anyone looking to invest.   This is a factor that seems to be left out when most real estate investment guru’s are teaching.  Here are the key points to consider when buying any real estate investment:

1.  Investors that are actively selling are usually burnt out!

The most commonly used analysis is the Capitalization Rate (known as Cap Rate=Net Operating ÷ Cost of Property).  A great property has a cap rate of 10-15%, not so great would be less than 7%.   Its rare for a property being sold to already be in the ideal range using this simple formula.  Why?   Burnout.   Unlike owner occupied homes, the typical landlord doesn’t sell on a whim and isn’t usually as motivated to sell as homeowners. Landlords rarely invest a lot of money getting their properties ready like homeowners do.   They’re pretty much done, but being done doesn’t mean they’re going to take a lousy offer.   “We don’t have to sell,”  we’re frequently told when offers come in that aren’t good enough.   Landlords usually only sell if the deal makes financial sense to them.  Having said that, they often times have lost interest in being landlords and have stopped improving the properties, or at least haven’t upgraded them to attract higher rents.   Because the financial numbers still make sense for them, burnt out landlords aren’t as likely to risk loosing a tenant by raising rent.  We’ve been told thousands of times by realtors selling properties, “rents could be a lot higher…”  We’ve also seen lots of scenarios where tenants were frustrated about matters that could be easily rectified after the sale.

2.   Cap Rates vary based upon value, which can be negotiated.

Many novice investors get ‘analysis paralysis’ because their investment metrics don’t usually line up perfectly.   The thought they have is that better properties will come, but usually they don’t. Even if they do, there are trade offs.   The property with great cap rates sometimes indicate a property that hasn’t kept up with a responsible building maintenance in recent years.

What is usually needed is a change of perspective, starting with an understanding of point 1 above.   If the cap rate of a property of interest is 8%, but the buyer wants it to be 10%, drop the price, and you’re in!!   Getting the seller to agree may not happen, but view the property as an opportunity (like a gold mine) and dig a little deeper.   Have a CPA familiar with real estate investment analyze the pro forma numbers.   Can depreciation be increased?  Were capital improvements made that weigh down the expenses?   Have any rental fees been left off the analysis like pet rents?   Can a more affordable hazard insurance policy be implemented?   Could a rents be bumped up?   Often times there are plenty of things a new owner can do to improve profitability.     One landlord shared with me that he asked the tenants of a building he was considering, what updates would they like to see?   After the sale, he approached them and gave them news about the updates AND a slight rent increase.    In their minds, the increase was warranted by the improvements they really wanted!

3.   Rely on Experience – Up close and personal

When I began my career in real estate investing, I read books and took classes, but one of the best sources of information was my local real estate investor association (REIA) and landlords club.   Meetings weren’t devoid of a any profit motive, as there were more classes, conventions and products presented, but being there with other, like minded investors and talking to them about their business was powerful.   Meeting landlords with decades of experience was like visiting my grandparents and getting reassurance that my efforts would pay off.  They weren’t the “experts” selling videos or online training packages for hundreds of dollars.   They were sharing their wisdom simply to be helpful.  Regarding the media gurus:, I often wonder if newbie investors included all the unneccessary books, dvd’s and training programs as a part of their investment balance sheets, would they justify themselves then?

4.   Always Consider Potential

Well maintained properties always hold their value better than those that are in rough shape .   Properties that are occupied tend to be in better shape than those that are vacant. For whatever reason though, when buying, investors seem to get excited by the lowest value properties.  The cost / benefit may be worth it, but in order to be a good investor that has to be explored.   Just assuming that the property is a good buy because it is cheap or the numbers fit a good formula is flawed logic.  The simple formula [cost + upgrades]-holding costs > updated market value should be used.   Updated market value is what the property will be worth after upgrades and is usually based on what comparable properties are selling for, or possibly what projected rents will be.   Digging into how similar properties perform that have the important updates can be done by searching rents online, and getting a before and after CMA (market analysis) from your Realtor can help too.   The main thing regarding investments is that any successful investor is going to THOUGHROULY ANALYZE each aspect of the opportunity before taking the plunge.  This analysis should be expected in every purchase, because to point 1, 2, and 3 above, people usually aren’t selling properties when they’re on a winning streak.   It will be up to the new owner to assess the property based upon its ability to generate equity and profit AFTER its problems are fixed.

5.  Watch Out for projected or estimated financials

Lastly, we see it often in the real estate sales process, when a landlord gives the buyer a financial statement on the property and the numbers aren’t real.   VERIFY! VERIFY! VERIFY!   We frequently see landlords try to sneak in what the tenant previously paid on a unit that is now vacant is being used.   This could lead to trouble if the unit is substantially older and less maintained, and therefore wouldn’t fetch the same rent.   Another common situation is the opposite, if apartments are newly updated but still vacant.   The seller projects what rents and expenses are without any hard facts.   To me, this should be considered fraud, but it happens all the time.